| A common complaint I have about the first Fate/stay night is how it breaks it's own rules without ever showing them working the first time. I now realize it is this way because, at the time, people would be acquainted with how a battle royale worked from watching stuff like the homonym movie or Kamen Rider Ryuki. I've also been thinking how much of tech illiteracy in the newer generations comes from the fact that they never had contact with the concrete thing that computers are abstracting: Never had contact with a paper file or an actual directory, and what's the save icon even supposed to be? So I've been thinking: What about anime? Are people watching their 10th "Kicked from the hero's party" ever watched an anime with a functional hero's party? An anime with a wacky premise for an isekai, have they watched a "normal" isekai? For those who watched an isekai, have they watched a "normal" fantasy? You might tell me they're able to "reverse engineer" how the original is supposed to be from that, but can they really? Throughout the story, I think that makes people imagine that the original is "generic and dumb", so people might be surprised that much of the jokes modern isekai has been making were made by Mahoujin Guruguru in the 80's... |
| I don't think so, Hirohiko Araki breaks his own world and stand rules all the time and it still works because of the strength of his writing. |
| no because there will always be people like thewiru around to remind us. |
 Currently Watching ☆ With You and the Rain ☆ Current Visual Novel ☆ The Colorful World ☆ |
thewiru said: Are people watching their 10th "Kicked from the hero's party" ever watched an anime with a functional hero's party? An anime with a wacky premise for an isekai, have they watched a "normal" isekai? For those who watched an isekai, have they watched a "normal" fantasy? You might tell me they're able to "reverse engineer" how the original is supposed to be from that, but can they really? Throughout the story, I think that makes people imagine that the original is "generic and dumb", so people might be surprised that much of the jokes modern isekai has been making were made by Mahoujin Guruguru in the 80's... They're probably all played Dragon Quest. The games remain popular in Japan. Dragon Quest is in fact generic, which is a large reason so many isekai anime are not good. |
| その目だれの目？ |
thewiru said: I've been thinking It appears I've identified the issue at hand. |
on 
| People also only watched post-Madoka edgy magical girls, never the originals. |
*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧May the winds of change transform you entirely.*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧ |
thewiru said: A common complaint I have about the first Fate/stay night is how it breaks it's own rules without ever showing them working the first time. @thewiru When does that happen in F/SN? |
Reply to Lucifrost
thewiru said:
Are people watching their 10th "Kicked from the hero's party" ever watched an anime with a functional hero's party? An anime with a wacky premise for an isekai, have they watched a "normal" isekai? For those who watched an isekai, have they watched a "normal" fantasy?
You might tell me they're able to "reverse engineer" how the original is supposed to be from that, but can they really? Throughout the story, I think that makes people imagine that the original is "generic and dumb", so people might be surprised that much of the jokes modern isekai has been making were made by Mahoujin Guruguru in the 80's...
Are people watching their 10th "Kicked from the hero's party" ever watched an anime with a functional hero's party? An anime with a wacky premise for an isekai, have they watched a "normal" isekai? For those who watched an isekai, have they watched a "normal" fantasy?
You might tell me they're able to "reverse engineer" how the original is supposed to be from that, but can they really? Throughout the story, I think that makes people imagine that the original is "generic and dumb", so people might be surprised that much of the jokes modern isekai has been making were made by Mahoujin Guruguru in the 80's...
They're probably all played Dragon Quest. The games remain popular in Japan.
Dragon Quest is in fact generic, which is a large reason so many isekai anime are not good.
Lucifrost said: Dragon Quest is in fact generic, which is a large reason so many isekai anime are not good. Yes, DQ is very basic and safe, it is to japan the equivalent of a video game comfort food like onigiri, it's simple and not very special but it tastes good and it's filling so they can't take very many risks with it or else they'll ruin it. |
Reply to Lucifrost
@JaniSIr
That's because they're aimed at different audiences. People who enjoy traditional magical girls are watching Pretty Cure nowadays.
That's because they're aimed at different audiences. People who enjoy traditional magical girls are watching Pretty Cure nowadays.
| @Lucifrost Well yes, but that doesn't contradict the point, but reinforces it. |
*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧May the winds of change transform you entirely.*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧ |
thewiru said: A common complaint I have about the first Fate/stay night is how it breaks it's own rules without ever showing them working the first time. I now realize it is this way because, at the time, people would be acquainted with how a battle royale worked from watching stuff like the homonym movie or Kamen Rider Ryuki. I'm not sure which rules you're referring to (Is it about the Rule Breaker artefact Rider uses? ), but let's keep in mind F/SN is a huge visual novel adaptation. Cuts were certainly made to adapt for animation. Also, I believe the plot is deeper than Kamen Rider when they're chasing the Grail, but it might just be my personal taste speaking (I never watched Kamen Rider but I think it's kinda like Power Rangers) thewiru said: I've also been thinking how much of tech illiteracy in the newer generations comes from the fact that they never had contact with the concrete thing that computers are abstracting: Never had contact with a paper file or an actual directory, and what's the save icon even supposed to be? I know really. Some younger ones don't even know how to write a mail or save files on their laptop, despite having so much screen time. They really should restrain this on young children and even early teenagers, but you can't force parents to do so. That's a huge problem for school after this (rise in attention deficiency, illiteracy and e-illiteracy, etc.) thewiru said: Are people watching their 10th "Kicked from the hero's party" ever watched an anime with a functional hero's party? An anime with a wacky premise for an isekai, have they watched a "normal" isekai? For those who watched an isekai, have they watched a "normal" fantasy? You might tell me they're able to "reverse engineer" how the original is supposed to be from that, but can they really? Throughout the story, I think that makes people imagine that the original is "generic and dumb", so people might be surprised that much of the jokes modern isekai has been making were made by Mahoujin Guruguru in the 80's... I don't think it matters which they start with as I told you before. It's not like there is a standardized normality in anime; quite the opposite, in fact, we all love anime because it is original and unique. However, classic fairy tales, and classic fantasy (medieval & futuristic) should be more taught to people, and not just on a whim. Those isekai tropes are merely fantasy literature taken into another medium. You could say the same of RPG. Can people really enjoy modern MMORPGs or AAA RPGs if they never played retro RPGs ? They certainly can have fun, but often need someone to guide them through the complex mechanics. That's what I criticize a lot of gamer communities for, they have absolutely no patience nor pedagogy, or worse, they crush new players in PvP settings. On a side note, I think you don't need so much quoting ", you could have written as is. Except maybe reverse engineering because it borrows from the tech world, but I think people would understand you (or not), whether you quote " or not. |
 |
Reply to Eldinis
thewiru said:
A common complaint I have about the first Fate/stay night is how it breaks it's own rules without ever showing them working the first time.
I now realize it is this way because, at the time, people would be acquainted with how a battle royale worked from watching stuff like the homonym movie or Kamen Rider Ryuki.
A common complaint I have about the first Fate/stay night is how it breaks it's own rules without ever showing them working the first time.
I now realize it is this way because, at the time, people would be acquainted with how a battle royale worked from watching stuff like the homonym movie or Kamen Rider Ryuki.
I'm not sure which rules you're referring to (Is it about the Rule Breaker artefact Rider uses? ), but let's keep in mind F/SN is a huge visual novel adaptation. Cuts were certainly made to adapt for animation. Also, I believe the plot is deeper than Kamen Rider when they're chasing the Grail, but it might just be my personal taste speaking (I never watched Kamen Rider but I think it's kinda like Power Rangers)
thewiru said:
I've also been thinking how much of tech illiteracy in the newer generations comes from the fact that they never had contact with the concrete thing that computers are abstracting: Never had contact with a paper file or an actual directory, and what's the save icon even supposed to be?
I've also been thinking how much of tech illiteracy in the newer generations comes from the fact that they never had contact with the concrete thing that computers are abstracting: Never had contact with a paper file or an actual directory, and what's the save icon even supposed to be?
I know really. Some younger ones don't even know how to write a mail or save files on their laptop, despite having so much screen time. They really should restrain this on young children and even early teenagers, but you can't force parents to do so. That's a huge problem for school after this (rise in attention deficiency, illiteracy and e-illiteracy, etc.)
thewiru said:
Are people watching their 10th "Kicked from the hero's party" ever watched an anime with a functional hero's party? An anime with a wacky premise for an isekai, have they watched a "normal" isekai? For those who watched an isekai, have they watched a "normal" fantasy?
You might tell me they're able to "reverse engineer" how the original is supposed to be from that, but can they really? Throughout the story, I think that makes people imagine that the original is "generic and dumb", so people might be surprised that much of the jokes modern isekai has been making were made by Mahoujin Guruguru in the 80's...
Are people watching their 10th "Kicked from the hero's party" ever watched an anime with a functional hero's party? An anime with a wacky premise for an isekai, have they watched a "normal" isekai? For those who watched an isekai, have they watched a "normal" fantasy?
You might tell me they're able to "reverse engineer" how the original is supposed to be from that, but can they really? Throughout the story, I think that makes people imagine that the original is "generic and dumb", so people might be surprised that much of the jokes modern isekai has been making were made by Mahoujin Guruguru in the 80's...
I don't think it matters which they start with as I told you before. It's not like there is a standardized normality in anime; quite the opposite, in fact, we all love anime because it is original and unique.
However, classic fairy tales, and classic fantasy (medieval & futuristic) should be more taught to people, and not just on a whim. Those isekai tropes are merely fantasy literature taken into another medium.
You could say the same of RPG. Can people really enjoy modern MMORPGs or AAA RPGs if they never played retro RPGs ? They certainly can have fun, but often need someone to guide them through the complex mechanics. That's what I criticize a lot of gamer communities for, they have absolutely no patience nor pedagogy, or worse, they crush new players in PvP settings.
On a side note, I think you don't need so much quoting ", you could have written as is. Except maybe reverse engineering because it borrows from the tech world, but I think people would understand you (or not), whether you quote " or not.
Eldinis said: I know really. Some younger ones don't even know how to write a mail or save files on their laptop, despite having so much screen time. They really should restrain this on young children and even early teenagers, but you can't force parents to do so. That's a huge problem for school after this (rise in attention deficiency, illiteracy and e-illiteracy, etc.) I learned how to use computers in school. |
| その目だれの目？ |
thewiru said: A common complaint I have about the first Fate/stay night is how it breaks it's own rules without ever showing them working the first time. I now realize it is this way because, at the time, people would be acquainted with how a battle royale worked from watching stuff like the homonym movie or Kamen Rider Ryuki. I don't know what that means. They didn't show them..."working....the first time"? Is that your complaint? Weird. I don't think many people would say anything like that, therefore I don't think you can question "people" and what they can and cannot be acquainted with. It sounds like a you-problem. thewiru said: I've also been thinking how much of tech illiteracy in the newer generations comes from the fact that they never had contact with the concrete thing that computers are abstracting: Never had contact with a paper file or an actual directory, and what's the save icon even supposed to be? So newer generations are less tech-savvy than the old guard? Interesting. And by interesting I mean wrong. thewiru said: Throughout the story, I think that makes people imagine that the original is "generic and dumb", so people might be surprised that much of the jokes modern isekai has been making were made by Mahoujin Guruguru in the 80's... Jokes are funny, just because they are funny. Nobody cares that you know that it all started in the 80's^^ People want to have fun. They don't want to read up on the history. |
 |
| @Lucifrost Lucifrost said: I learned how to use computers in school. I learnt in grade school too, but that doesn't mean highschoolers all know about it. |
|
Reply to Eldinis
@Lucifrost
I learnt in grade school too, but that doesn't mean highschoolers all know about it.
Lucifrost said:
I learned how to use computers in school.
I learned how to use computers in school.
I learnt in grade school too, but that doesn't mean highschoolers all know about it.
| @Eldinis That sounds like a problem with the schools they go to. |
| その目だれの目？ |
thewiru said: that's a baseless assumption. tech illiteracy has always been a thing, and it's simply a result of people not using tech. I've also been thinking how much of tech illiteracy in the newer generations comes from the fact that they never had contact with the concrete thing you don't need to have ever touched or seen a floppy disk in order to understand that 💾 means saving. because almost every program ever made uses 💾 as the symbol for saving. so simply by using programs, you will learn through reinforcement that 💾 means saving your file. and you will understand how files and folders work, and you will understand that the circle arrow is reload, the house gets you back to the homepage, an arrow pointing down to a line or bracket means download, three dots bring up a menu, three dots connected by two lines means "sharing", a cogwheel means settings, etc. etc. all of these symbols are extremely abstract, and most of them have no relevance to the real world whatsoever. and yet, people do understand them through regular usage. just like you can improve your literacy by reading, you can improve your tech literacy by using tech. thewiru said: they usually don't have to, because most people who would watch a show like that are familiar with the concept of a party from RPGs or just general pop culture. yes, the small percentage of people who have no clue are probably not gonna appreciate every aspect of such a story. but that's a bit like someone who has no clue who Jesus is watching Life of Brian. Are people watching their 10th "Kicked from the hero's party" ever watched an anime with a functional hero's party? thewiru said: well, the originals are Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy and all those other mid 80s RPGs. they are fun games, but they are very generic and kinda dumb. I had this discussion before with someone, but the thing about these games and their core mechanics is that they are engrained in nerd pop culture. again, the vast majority of people who will watch these shows already understands the basics. Throughout the story, I think that makes people imagine that the original is "generic and dumb" and here is the thing: there is no point in trying to write a standard epic fantasy story of a group of heroes seeking to destroy the demon lord and playing it straight. Tolkien already did it, and nobody will ever do it as well as Tolkien. so you have two options: 1. try to come up with your own fantasy world, or 2. stick with the Tolkien/DnD high fantasy and put a twist on it. what if the hero comes from our world? what if the demon lord has already been defeated? what if you cook the monsters you defeat? what if the healer gets a redo for a good old rousing round of revenge r*pe? the reason why so many stories fall back to the high fantasy standard is precisely because it is universaly understood by their target audience. people do like it when they are in familiar territory, and they like "what-if" scenarios. |
Lucifrost said: People who enjoy traditional magical girls are watching Pretty Cure nowadays. Huuum, Pretty Cure was boring to watch before and after Madoka, so naaah. Eldinis said: Is it about the Rule Breaker artefact Rider uses? Other rules...or maybe exceptions for how things work are broken too. For example Gil being an ex servant. |
alshu11 hours ago
Reply to krautnelson
thewiru said:
I've also been thinking how much of tech illiteracy in the newer generations comes from the fact that they never had contact with the concrete thing
that's a baseless assumption. tech illiteracy has always been a thing, and it's simply a result of people not using tech. I've also been thinking how much of tech illiteracy in the newer generations comes from the fact that they never had contact with the concrete thing
you don't need to have ever touched or seen a floppy disk in order to understand that 💾 means saving. because almost every program ever made uses 💾 as the symbol for saving. so simply by using programs, you will learn through reinforcement that 💾 means saving your file. and you will understand how files and folders work, and you will understand that the circle arrow is reload, the house gets you back to the homepage, an arrow pointing down to a line or bracket means download, three dots bring up a menu, three dots connected by two lines means "sharing", a cogwheel means settings, etc. etc.
all of these symbols are extremely abstract, and most of them have no relevance to the real world whatsoever. and yet, people do understand them through regular usage. just like you can improve your literacy by reading, you can improve your tech literacy by using tech.
thewiru said:
Are people watching their 10th "Kicked from the hero's party" ever watched an anime with a functional hero's party?
they usually don't have to, because most people who would watch a show like that are familiar with the concept of a party from RPGs or just general pop culture. yes, the small percentage of people who have no clue are probably not gonna appreciate every aspect of such a story. but that's a bit like someone who has no clue who Jesus is watching Life of Brian. Are people watching their 10th "Kicked from the hero's party" ever watched an anime with a functional hero's party?
thewiru said:
Throughout the story, I think that makes people imagine that the original is "generic and dumb"
well, the originals are Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy and all those other mid 80s RPGs. they are fun games, but they are very generic and kinda dumb. I had this discussion before with someone, but the thing about these games and their core mechanics is that they are engrained in nerd pop culture. again, the vast majority of people who will watch these shows already understands the basics. Throughout the story, I think that makes people imagine that the original is "generic and dumb"
and here is the thing: there is no point in trying to write a standard epic fantasy story of a group of heroes seeking to destroy the demon lord and playing it straight. Tolkien already did it, and nobody will ever do it as well as Tolkien. so you have two options: 1. try to come up with your own fantasy world, or 2. stick with the Tolkien/DnD high fantasy and put a twist on it. what if the hero comes from our world? what if the demon lord has already been defeated? what if you cook the monsters you defeat? what if the healer gets a redo for a good old rousing round of revenge r*pe?
the reason why so many stories fall back to the high fantasy standard is precisely because it is universaly understood by their target audience. people do like it when they are in familiar territory, and they like "what-if" scenarios.
krautnelson said: and here is the thing: there is no point in trying to write a standard epic fantasy story of a group of heroes seeking to destroy the demon lord and playing it straight. Tolkien already did it, and nobody will ever do it as well as Tolkien. so you have two options: 1. try to come up with your own fantasy world, or 2. stick with the Tolkien/DnD high fantasy and put a twist on it. what if the hero comes from our world? what if the demon lord has already been defeated? what if you cook the monsters you defeat? what if the healer gets a redo for a good old rousing round of revenge r*pe? I think later writers have done it better than Tolkien. While I enjoy seeing everyone put their own spin on the formula, however, isekai anime are full of gimmicks that make for less compelling narratives than straightforward takes such as Deltora. Looking beyond anime we have Prydain, essentially Welsh Lord of the Rings, with a simple world that feels fresher than anything written 60 years later. |
| その目だれの目？ |
| @Eldinis The 3 routes, never end with "They beat all the other servants and got the cup". And that the anime won't follow its laid out rules and a traditional tournament structure should be expected whenever it gets explicit. From Dragon Ball to Love Live, it never gets done as is on paper. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnspokenPlanGuarantee Ps: Both Battle Royale, Kamen Raider Ryuuki also didn't follow what was said. |
| The great debate about the definition of tsundere comes to mind. |
Don't Worry, Everything Is gonna Happy ♡ |
Reply to Sasori56483
@Eldinis The 3 routes, never end with "They beat all the other servants and got the cup". And that the anime won't follow its laid out rules and a traditional tournament structure should be expected whenever it gets explicit.
From Dragon Ball to Love Live, it never gets done as is on paper. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnspokenPlanGuarantee
Ps: Both Battle Royale, Kamen Raider Ryuuki also didn't follow what was said.
From Dragon Ball to Love Live, it never gets done as is on paper. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnspokenPlanGuarantee
Ps: Both Battle Royale, Kamen Raider Ryuuki also didn't follow what was said.
| @Sasori56483 Yea, I've always more seen Fate as a tragedy, not only with its end but its characters, albeit with anachronic mythical heroes. I never thought one would object to tournament rules having to be laid out. There is no rules in war. (esp. a holy one) |
|
Eldinis said: You could say the same of RPG. Can people really enjoy modern MMORPGs or AAA RPGs if they never played retro RPGs ? They certainly can have fun, but often need someone to guide them through the complex mechanics. That's what I criticize a lot of gamer communities for, they have absolutely no patience nor pedagogy, or worse, they crush new players in PvP settings. I played quite a lot of Quake, there there's no match making, so a pro and a new player could realistically be in the same game, and the community generally considers it bad manners to not play against your opponent seriously, regardless of their skill level. |
*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧May the winds of change transform you entirely.*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧ |
Reply to Sasori56483
@Eldinis The 3 routes, never end with "They beat all the other servants and got the cup". And that the anime won't follow its laid out rules and a traditional tournament structure should be expected whenever it gets explicit.
From Dragon Ball to Love Live, it never gets done as is on paper. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnspokenPlanGuarantee
Ps: Both Battle Royale, Kamen Raider Ryuuki also didn't follow what was said.
From Dragon Ball to Love Live, it never gets done as is on paper. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UnspokenPlanGuarantee
Ps: Both Battle Royale, Kamen Raider Ryuuki also didn't follow what was said.
| @Sasori56483 The first thing any story with immortality as a plot point does is it kills some of them. It's pretty stupid, why even do that, that just revered back to normal human. |
*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧May the winds of change transform you entirely.*:･ﾟ✧*:･ﾟ✧ |
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